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The Best Interest » Fight, Flight, and Friction: Being Smart in Your Volatile Portfolio | Carl Richards – E83

Fight, Flight, and Friction: Being Smart in Your Volatile Portfolio | Carl Richards – E83

Check out Episode 83 of The Best Interest Podcast below.

Show Notes – Episode 83

Jesse starts this episode with a confession: money still stresses him out. The four ways that Jesse reduces this stress are remembering what’s going right financially, prioritizing spending, working hard, and remembering that others have walked this path.

Then, with another call back to his blog, Jesse invokes Marshall McLuhan’s quote “the medium is the message” when sharing from his post, “The Friction is the Message”.

Today’s guest is Carl Richards, the creator of the Behavior Gap, author of The Behavior Gap: Simple Ways to Stop Doing Dumb Things with Money, and host of Behavior Gap Radio. Not only has Carl been featured on and, he’s the creator of the Sketch Guy column which ran weekly for a decade in The New York Times. In this episode, Carl gives us some great insight into how we can refocus ourselves and our finances on what really matters to us.

If you’re interested in not only financial planning, but time, energy, and attention planning, too, then this is the episode for you!

Key Takeaways:

• 4 ways Jesse reduces his financial stress.

• Friction as a bad thing, and friction as a good thing.

• Why you should invite imposter syndrome in.

• What is the Behavior Gap?

• How to choose your financial advisor.

• How to manage your money, time, energy, and attention.

Key Timestamps:

(02:10) Jesse’s Monologue: Money Still Stresses Me Out

(07:24) Managing Financial Stress: Four Key Reminders

(13:42) The Friction is the Message

(22:14) Carl Richards Joins the Conversation

(28:48) Why Carl Shares

(30:41) Overcoming Fear, Anxiety, and Imposter Syndrome

(39:02) The Behavior Gap in Investing

(44:48) The Value of Real Financial Planning with a Real Advisor

(52:28) Conclusion and Resources

Key Topics Discussed:

The Best Interest, Jesse Cramer, Rochester New York financial planning, financial stress, human capital, personal energy, mental attention, financial advisor, imposter syndrome, financial anxiety, the Behavior Gap, the Friction is the Message





Transcript – Episode 83

[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to the Best Interest Podcast, where we believe Benjamin Franklin’s advice that an investment in knowledge pays the best interest, both in finances and in your life. Every episode teaches you personal finance and investing in simple terms. Now here’s your host, Jesse Cramer. 

[00:00:20] Jesse: Hello and welcome to episode 83 of the Best Interest Podcast.

My name is Jesse Cramer. Later in today’s episode, Carl Richards is going to be joining me. Carl Richards is a certified financial planner, the creator of a lot of interesting content, perhaps most famous of which is that he wrote a weekly column in the New York Times for about 10 years. Carl’s awesome.

Carl has a lot of cool stuff to share. And perhaps what’s most interesting is that A lot of what Karl shares isn’t necessarily about money, it’s about the other side of human capital, which to Karl has four sides, it’s money, time, energy, and attention. And I like that theory, that idea permeates into a lot of what Karl does, and I think by thinking of our human capital that way, as more than just money, as also as our time, our energy, and attention, it leads to much better outcomes in our lives.

But as always, we’re going to start this episode with a quick review of the week. This one comes from Doug. Doug wrote into Apple Podcasts, left us a five star review, and Doug said, the world of personal finance can seem super complicated and even a bit intimidating, but the Best Interest Podcast breaks it all down in a way that’s actually enjoyable to listen to.

Jesse doesn’t just talk about making money, he talks about how to use your money to actually make your life better. That’s what keeps me coming back. I’ve learned so much from this podcast, but what I love the most is that the advice is clear and it feels doable. Jesse has a great way of explaining things, using real life examples, making even the trickier concepts easy to understand.

If you’re ready to get control of your money and who isn’t, give this podcast a try. It’s the perfect mix of fun and super useful information. Thank you so much for those kind words and if you hear this Doug, drop me an email jesse at bestinterest. blog and we’ll get you hooked up with a super soft best interest t shirt.

And now, before Carl joins us today, you’ll kind of hear in the beginning of the conversation, I start the conversation with Carl, By quoting one of his daily podcasts where he talked a little bit about financial stress and about how he still feels some financial stress in his life. So I wanted to go back and read to you listeners an article I wrote on January 1st, new Year’s Day of 2022, so over two years ago.

And the title of the article is Money Still Stresses Me Out, and that this title was true at the time. And I think to some extent it’s still true today. You know, stress takes on many different forms. I don’t think I’m paranoid about money and I, I don’t lose too much sleep over money. But yeah, that, that New Year’s, I decided to post instead of a New Year’s resolution, I wanted to post a New Year’s confession.

And the confession is, despite all that I do in the world of personal finance, money still stresses me out. I write about money, I think about money, I podcast about money. My household, I think we make enough money. I think, for the most part, I do smart things with my money. And yet, I still get stressed out about money.

And my personal goal, at least, isn’t necessarily to eliminate this stress. I think the stress will always be there in some form, almost like a shadow, a personal finance money shadow following me around. So I don’t want to get rid of it necessarily, or I don’t think it’s possible, but instead I do want to expose that stress, that shadow, to as much light as I possibly can.

I want to give it a name and I want to understand it better. I want to make it less scary. You know, I want to look under the bed and face the monster, hopefully in doing so reduce the magnitude of that stress. But I think the place to start this conversation is to ask myself, and maybe we can all ask ourselves, where does my money stress come from?

So, this goes back a ways, and I’m kind of reading this article back to myself live. Back to my time when I was spending way too much time on Twitter, which, by the way, if you’re spending a lot of time on Twitter, You might want to rethink that. Just my personal side here, but apparently on Twitter, I tweeted something where I was talking about my financial stress and, and someone else wrote in and they asked, Hey, is there something specific about money that causes you stress?

And what a great question, because there could, of course, be any number of causes. And most of us are intimately familiar with the various causes of financial stress, whether it’s debt, not saving enough, not earning enough in the first place, confusion, you know, financial literacy. Confusion, housing instability, or food instability, something very basic to human flourishing that, that isn’t there because of finances.

A very common one that I’m dealing with, that I see rather, quite often, is just not knowing where my money is going. People often, they get to the end of the month and they say, we know we’re earning a good paycheck, we just don’t know where it all goes. Or it could be a thousand other things. None of the above actually stress me out, thankfully.

Instead, At the time, and still somewhat right now, I’m stressed out by what I perceive as an oncoming and challenging to quantify wave of spending, an oncoming wave of spending. So at the time I wrote this, Kelly and I were both 31. I’m now 34, she’s 33. We were very much at turning points in our career. I was just starting my job in wealth management.

She was working full time, but she was in the middle of an MBA program, which she has successfully finished. Go, Kelly. We were engaged, not yet married, but now we are married. And then there was the big question of kids, which at the time was just a thought way out in the distance, way out on the horizon.

But now, all of a sudden, it’s directly in front of the windshield. It’s very much in focus. In fact, there’s almost a guarantee, at the time you hear these words, that kids will be a reality for me and we’ll have our first child. Which is super exciting, don’t get me wrong. Tiny bit scary, but very exciting.

At the time, my wife and I, my fiancé and I, were sharing this small house. Small house, which was great for two of us and a dog, but we needed to upgrade, especially if we wanted to start a family. And, at the time, and still somewhat to this day, Western New York, Rochester specifically, is one of, if not the hottest housing markets in the country.

My wife’s car was 15 years old, my car was 9 years old, and those two would need to be replaced sooner than later. And when I looked at that list, a kid, a house, cars, homes. Man, that’s a lot of potential money to spend over the next few years. And some of those costs, I had thought that the near term costs would be as high as 200, 000 in the three years between when I wrote that article and now.

And the long term costs, when you think about mortgage amortization, when you think about raising kids, if one needs a car loan, which we’re trying really hard to avoid. I mean, the long term costs of all these various things easily can surpass a million dollars over 20 or 30 years. Life can be expensive.

I mean, that’s the real reality of it. The hard reality of it. Even if you’re making pretty good money, which, I mean, I know where, what our household earnings are, and we’re at a very nice percentile when it comes to household earnings. We are making, by any sort of metric, we’re making good money. And yet life is still very expensive.

And if and when those expenses are either uncertain in magnitude or timing, it just adds to the stress. I still don’t know exactly what our future income might be. I don’t know exactly what our future expenses will be. That in itself is concerning, but when I add in the high stakes of getting the planning wrong, The housing wrong, messing up the household finances for the kid.

Yes, that is certainly a source of stress. But importantly, important for me and hopefully important for you, I’m finding ways to reduce the stress. I’m doing my best to keep it in check. And, and the following four reminders have helped me out a lot. First, I’m reminding myself of where my wife and I are in our financial lives.

For example, our only debt right now, as I speak to you here in 2024, is from a mortgage. It’s a relatively low interest mortgage, I think in the big scheme of things. It’s granted, it’s not as low as it would have been if we got the mortgage three years ago. I’m not in love with my mortgage. We might have a chance to refinance it, but our housing costs are very doable in our current budget.

And when I think beyond that, we have an emergency fund. Our budgets, the fact that we’re tracking our spending, it gives us so much valuable information to plan our future. Our retirement accounts, 401ks, Roth IRAs, those kind of things are very healthy. We’ve been good, frugal savers. Going back, you know, 12 plus years now to the beginning of our career.

So there’s a lot of good things going on. There’s some safety nets, right? There’s some long term savings that we’ve been building over time that even if some of the upcoming expenses don’t quite go our way, if it ends up being a little more expensive than we hoped, we have those safety nets in place.

Now, second, All of the spending that I talked about can be prioritized. We don’t have to spend all of that money over a short period of time. We can choose which spending is most important and most urgent. And a quick aside here, you know, here in 2024, something that my wife and I did at the beginning of this year was we talked about these big expenses that we knew would be coming.

So last summer we bought a house, right? So we thought about, okay, we’ve got 12 months of mortgage payments. At the beginning of this year, we were still driving our old cars. My wife’s car was a 2006, my car’s a 2012, neither car’s in the best shape. My wife’s car especially, we agreed, was a relatively urgent thing that needed to be replaced and we went ahead and we, we did actually replace that car a couple months ago.

But we went through the various important things that we knew would be quite expensive that we could potentially spend money on, but that we didn’t have to, and we prioritized that list. And we said, for the safety of our child, for example, we need a new car, we need a family car, and that’s pretty high in the priority list.

Because we are having this child, and there’s medical expenses involved, and there’s diaper and food expenses, and clothes, because children are expensive, we’re going to earmark this amount of money for the child. And that’s also as high a priority on our list as it comes. Whereas personally, you know, my car, because I’m also driving a relatively old car, but mine still runs reasonably well.

It still has some miles in it left. If we were made of money, I would have replaced it. But we’re not. And we had to prioritize where we spent money. So that’s pretty low on our priority list, or at least lower this year. There is a chance that by the end of this year, we’ll be in a position where I can replace my car.

But right now, It doesn’t make sense. Right now our priorities are elsewhere and we are applying our money elsewhere. So the stress that I feel is a little bit better, is made a little bit better by the fact that I know we have a plan of priorities in place. Now, the third thing that makes me feel better is that hard work usually helps.

Not always, but usually. You know, if a magic genie came to me today and said, In two years, you’ll both be earning enough money to eliminate your current stress. Well then, I’d start relaxing today. Now, what a pleasant genie. What a great genie. Now, unfortunately, that genie doesn’t exist. But I can try to make that genie’s prediction come true.

And the easiest way to do so is through hard work, consistent work, valuable work. I don’t want this to necessarily be construed as some sort of equation where it says hard work equals wealth, and therefore laziness equals poverty. I don’t think that’s true. But I do think there’s a bit of a statistical statement there.

Which is, if you work hard in your life, You are more likely, more probably, going to end up in a better position than if you’re lazy in your life. I think hard work there, I think it’s a statistical, probabilistic statement. Hard work definitely is a factor that improves the odds of your cream rising to the top.

It’s a factor that you can always control. And this is something that I wrote two and a half years ago and I look back on that time and I do think it’s true. For what it’s worth, you know, I put in hard work during the day, I try to put in hard work here on The Best Interest at night. And sure enough, over time that compounds and it grows and good things do start to happen.

The fourth thing that makes me feel better about my financial stress is that the trail before us isn’t unblazed. It’s a blazed trail, right, as in trail blazing. The idea is that millions of people have taken similar paths before, albeit with different incomes and expenses and unique financial plans. But if they made it, if they could all make it, I’m betting that we’ll make it too.

And that’s something that, again, any of you listening out there with financial stress, when I talk to, say, someone approaching retirement, and I’m talking to them about their financial plan, about their investment management, portfolio design, social security, tax planning, all these kind of things, it is a lot, right?

It’s a lot. And it’s certainly a source of stress, but something I like to remind them of is that the answers are out there, right? And this is a path that has been blazed before, And you might be unique in your own ways, in your own goals, in your own asset base and all those kind of things, but we can find a path that’s going to work for you.

So if you’re feeling financial stress, I think that’s definitely something to keep in mind. In the process of writing this article two years ago, I found this quote that I really liked. And the quote is, Stress is directly related to how out of control we feel. And I completely agree. Part of my future, then, is And part of my future as I speak to you right now is out of my control.

And yeah, that does stress me out a little bit. But the four reminders I just talked about, I think they all point towards different ways in which we can regain and retain a little bit more control in our lives and a little bit more control financially. We can make smart choices. We can choose to prioritize.

We can choose to work hard. We can choose to emulate prior success stories. And in that way, we can start to regain and retain control. So if you’re stressed about your finances, if you’re stressed about something out of control, it’s completely understandable, but that is the question to ask yourself.

What can you do in your life to regain or retain some, if not all, of your financial control? The answers to that question have certainly helped me and I think they’ll help you too. And before we get to Carl, I’m going to read from another article only because I think this is the perfect article to kind of introduce Carl with.

The title of this article is The Friction is the Message. The Friction is the Message, and I’m going to explain what that means. But part of the reason why has to do with the fact that Carl is a financial planner, he’s a financial professional, and you’ll understand why that matters when I read this article.

But then the other interesting thing is that Carl, like me, is a content creator, and his content’s very unique. He’s very famous, in fact, for these doodles, these little drawings, these simple sketches that he does. The And that’s another reason why this particular article is unique to Carl. And the article starts with the idea of Marshall McLuhan.

Marshall McLuhan was a Canadian. He was a communication theorist, like an academic, a professor of communication. And he has this very famous line where he says, the medium is the message. And by medium, he means, you know, like media, as in there’s hidden meaning in the choice of media that we use. For example, my choice to speak to you in this podcast or to write on a blog, it sets a certain tone.

Like regardless of what I’m saying, the simple choice of speaking into your ears in this way, long form content or writing out articles sets a tone that’s unique and different than the tone that say Instagram would set or the tone that television would set. And if you don’t believe me, if you don’t really understand what I’m saying, ask yourself, would you feel the same about Jesse?

If everything I did was on TikTok, right? If I’m there in these 30 second clips and I’m waving my hands and I’m making it exciting, I think we can all agree that TikTok has just a different feel than a podcast. There is a message hidden within the medium itself. And with Carl, I think that’s unique because there is a message buried within his choice to make these simple doodles.

There’s a message buried within his choice, for example, on Behavior Gap Radio, Carl’s podcast. He does these little three to four minute, almost confessional style episodes every single day. Like there’s a message there that, you know, I think of it and say, okay, well, personal finance and investing, it can be relatively simple, right?

Look at his simple sketches, personal finance and investing. It can be this slow, steady drip of short steps over time, just like behavior gap radio. Anyway, so I think that’s kind of cool, but the rest of this article doesn’t necessarily have to do with Carl Richards in that way. When I hear Marshall McLuhan’s quote, and then when I’ve had some of these interactions in wealth management, in this professional world of financial planning, where there are some good actors and there are some bad actors and it’s a little bit scary.

I have my own version of Marshall McLuhan’s quote, which is the friction is the message. And a very easy example to understand is it has to do with a client. And I was helping this client roll over their old 403b account, which is similar to a 401k, into an IRA. I thought back to this idea that in 2022, I rolled my own old 401k, which was at Fidelity, into an IRA at Schwab.

And it was so easy. Now, even though Fidelity was losing my assets and whatever small revenue they were collecting associated with my assets, part of Fidelity’s smart long term tactic was to make my rollover as easy as possible. And in my opinion, Fidelity’s lack of friction sends a very clear message to me and to all their other clients.

And the message is, hey, it’s in Fidelity’s best interest for us to help all of our clients. And we’re so good at what we do that we can afford to make your life easy, even when you’re leaving us. Thanks. So, good work Fidelity, I think that’s the right way to go about things. In my specific case where I was helping a client roll over their 403B, which was coming from a different custodian, not Fidelity, it was ridiculously frictional.

There were multiple forms with dozens of fields involving four different firms, physical mail between those firms, something called a medallion stamp, a notary public, which are like these official stamps that are relatively challenging to get or at least a bit of a headache to get. Just to make sure that everything was official and thinking back on it, whereas my rollover literally took five minutes on the phone, this 403B rollover was taking weeks of actual timeline and hours and hours of individual people’s time.

It was a serious headache. And that’s even with a professional staff behind me here to help out. And I can’t imagine the frustration of someone having to go through that alone. And that’s when I realized, and I thought about it, oh, here’s this case where. The friction that we’re feeling, this inter firm friction during the rollover, that’s the message.

And that particular 403B provider that was bringing all this friction to the table, they were sending a clear but subtle message, and that message was, Hey, we don’t exactly want your rollover to be successful. We want you to give up, we want you to leave your assets here, so that we can continue profiting off you.

It’s part of our business model, and it’s important to our survival. And that’s the message. Now, 403B programs, especially for, example, for public school teachers, they are notoriously predatory. When you multiply that kind of friction across thousands of attempted rollovers, I am absolutely positive that some people will give up.

That frictional, shoddy custodian will profit off of their predatory frictional practice. I reached out to friend of the blog, Tony Isola, to commiserate and he wrote back to me and he said, Yeah, that’s deliberate financial friction implemented by companies with a predatory business model. That’s the only explanation for things like this in 2023.

Now, there are some similar stories when it comes to one on one investment advisors and financial planners. There are different levels of friction on the way in and on the way out of an advising relationship. Now, in some cases, I actually do think the friction serves an important purpose, a good purpose.

Like, hey, before we decide to work together, let’s make sure all of our services fit your needs. Let’s slow down. Or, before we work together, let’s set some expectations beforehand so that we’re sure this working relationship will benefit both of us. Or maybe let’s get all the facts on the table first, and then decide what direction to go in.

It’s almost like dating, you know, let’s slow down, let’s get to know one another. Now, when a couple gets married after a month of dating, we kind of question their choice, right? Like, can they really know that it’s right? A little bit of friction up front, that kind of due diligence early in a relationship, is almost always a positive sign.

But when there’s that friction on the way out of a relationship, going back to the marriage analogy, not every couple works out. And are you going to make it hard and throw your ex girlfriend’s stuff out on the front lawn? Well, that’s a bit of a red flag, isn’t it? Early in my career, I inherited a client from one of my colleagues who was retiring and she came to me with news.

Her grandson had just started a career as a financial advisor and she wanted to go support him with her business. And it was my first professional breakup. So, I went to my boss and just to make sure I understood the upcoming logistics and he said to me, you know, Jesse, a lot of advisors make this difficult on their clients and I insist we do the exact opposite.

So, so thank her for her business with us. Let her know that we’ll do whatever is needed to make her transition as frictionless as possible. I love that approach, right? The friction or the lack thereof, that sends a very important, subtle message. Now ideally, just like in this case, we wanted to make her transition as frictionless, as easy as possible.

To do the right thing, to always work in a client’s best interest, to take the high road. That brings me to a Warren Buffett quote, right? Take the high road, it’s far less crowded there. I am tooting my own horn, I obviously am biased here, but I contrast that helpful approach against some of the stories that you’ll hear around this industry of guilting clients into staying, of ignoring emails from clients who want to leave.

of accusing clients of betrayal for ending a business relationship. It’s either negligence or manipulation or gaslighting, and it’s all just kind of gross. The predatory friction at the end of that kind of relationship sends a clear message, in my opinion, and that message is, I’ve always been predatory, even if you never knew it.

And when they send you a message like that, believe them. It’s just like the Maya Angelou quote, right? When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. People know themselves much better than you do. That’s why it’s important to stop expecting them to be something other than who they are.

The friction is the message. Here’s a quick ad, and then we’ll get back to the show. One of the more common questions I hear is, Jesse, what do you like and use? Books, blogs, podcasts, even banks and brokerage firms. What are your recommendations? So, to answer that question, I put together a webpage. You can check it out at bestinterest.

blog slash recommendations. Again, that’s bestinterest. blog slash recommendations to check out how I’m improving my financial life. Let’s bring on a financial good guy, a certified financial planner, Carl Richards. Carl is not only a certified financial planner, he’s also creator of the sketch guy column which appeared weekly for a decade in the New York Times.

Yes, the New York Times. Carl has also been featured on Marketplace Money, on Oprah, and on Forbes. In addition, Carl has become a frequent keynote speaker at financial planning conferences and visual learning events around the world. Carl has a few terrific podcasts, Behavior Gap Radio, it’s a short daily morsel of interesting thoughts.

50 Fires is another podcast, it’s a series of terrific money origin stories that’s actually ongoing. They haven’t all been released yet and I’ve really been enjoying 50 Fires. And then there’s also Kitsis and Carl, which features Carl along with famous financial planning nerd Michael Kitsis, where they go deep on interesting topics to help other financial planners in their careers.

I think, and or at least what I hope you’ll enjoy in today’s episode, is what I like about Carl’s work in general, where yes, money is important. But money is not the main course. Instead, Carl thinks, and I agree with him, that we should think about our human capital as money, but also as time, energy, and attention.

So without further ado, here is Carl Richards.

Carl Richards, thanks for joining us on the Best Interest Podcast, and this is going to be a funny way to start, but I heard you woke up this morning with a little bit of fear on your mind. Thanks. And that fear was there for some financial reasons. So, so what’s going on? 

[00:23:44] Carl: Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting. I was trying to think of why, but this has been a common theme for a very long time.

And I’ll, I’ll admit this just because I think I’m not alone. I’m hyper alert and sort of hyper vigilant, which means I’m always sort of scanning the landscape and it does like driving. Like I know at all times what’s going on in every mirror always, right? Like I didn’t really understand until maybe it’s probably like 10 years ago that it was largely me feeling this interesting sense of the need to protect.

And there’s some tradition in that, this like protect and provide thing that has been handed down for a long time. And, and some of it I took on on myself. So I’ve always sort of like, Is there a lion in the bush? Is there a lion in the bush? And that, of course, in today’s environment, for most of us, that shows up around money.

Like, am I going to be able to provide? Am I going to be able to protect? And years ago, right, five years ago, as I became more and more aware of this, that it was like impacting and, and I would say things even to like my wife or kids, like, don’t you understand the reason I’m doing this? You know, like that kind of stuff that we, it’s almost like a, It’s almost like a meme.

It’s so commonly repeated that people will say that to their, and my wife pointed out at one point, she was like, do we look like we need you to protect us? You’re like, we want you here, but does your 25 year old daughter who’s in distressed equity in New York look like she needs you to provide? Does your daughter that just got into med school, has got a biomedical engineering degree look like she needs you to provide?

I was like, no, I’m really glad you want me, but, and so it’s been the first time in a while where I, and you’re, you’re referencing my daily podcast behavior radio. I, and I think it might’ve been, we watched dune to the, the night before. So I was sort of like, I woke up just thinking like, is it all going to go away?

It’s today, the day. And it was reminding me of feelings I used to have a long time ago. Everybody, whoever’s worked with me, he’s going to fire me tomorrow. And none of that’s rational. I And it just needs to be unwell. I just need to stop and realize that right then I had no problems. Right then. And this idea that it might all go away is a projection of something that may or may not happen in the future.

And that’s all a problem really is. And what did Mark Twain say? I’ve had lots of problems and some of them have happened. So that, that’s the explanation behind that. It made me think of 

[00:26:08] Jesse: another, there’s another famous quote. I think it’s one of the Stoics, some Roman guy or Greek guy, I think, who said, you know, he, who lives in anxiety, feels it twice.

Something like that, right? Like the anxiety is, it brings on the emotions. And then the actual event of whatever you’re worried about, we’ll bring on the emotions again. As you’re talking there, Carl, my wife and I were expecting our first baby in early June. We sit here recording on April 30th. So we’ve got a baby that’s, Five weeks away, maybe less depending on what mother nature has in store.

And I’m reading some books about fatherhood and they talk about that during pregnancy, especially a lot of expectant fathers start to feel this acute financial stress because it’s, it’s one of the things that they’re able to focus on. They don’t know what it’s like to carry the baby. They don’t have that intimate, the baby’s kicking me right now feeling, but they project their anxiety onto the finances in the household.

I’ve certainly woken up with some fear in my heart recently, some anxiety there. 

[00:27:03] Carl: Sure. And I, you know, I think some of that’s probably, I mean, it’s certainly natural. And if you go all the way back to when it wasn’t about zeros and ones in a bank account, it was about shelter and food and providing. And, and especially in the scenario you’re pointing to, like at that moment, you’re physically the one that’s able to go do that kind of thing at that moment when somebody’s about to give birth, they’re not out hunting.

So it’s, it’s an interesting thing to unwind. It’s also very interesting to think about like what that means. In an environment where those roles, if they ever were traditional shift and change in very good ways, by the way, like I’m so gratified watching my older daughters and they’re preparing for careers in ways that I, you know, 20 or 30 years ago, we didn’t quite think the same way.

And I’m really glad that change is happening. And with that change, And I think it’s all good. And there’s tension there and that tension needs to be managed. It’s really, really fun to watch all of that puzzle take place in so many people’s lives right now. 

[00:28:11] Jesse: Well, as you were sharing these stories with us, Carl, take a quick sidebar away from anything financially related.

At least I think so. Because you share a lot of your stories and your thoughts with the world and in a very kind of fun, useful, fun, useful way, you’re very open and honest way about the way that you share your thoughts and stories with the world. You do a lot of work in public is what I’m driving at.

And in some ways, as I was thinking about talking to you today, I thought about Seth Godin, who does a lot of work in public. And I’m not sure if you’re a Seth Godin fan, if you’re familiar with him at all. But from a creator’s point of view here, it’s something I’d like to do on the best interest. I mean, why do you go about sharing 

[00:28:47] Carl: in public the way that you do?

I wish I knew. I wrote a column for the New York Times every week for 10 years, and a lot of those were stories that I probably shouldn’t have told about my own life. And my wife used to say to me, like, is this on or off the record? And I would always be like, you’re gonna, you’re gonna have to wait till Thursday when the column comes out to find out.

I mean, I worry that it’s because I’m, you know, like need some sort of ego and I need to be out in the world and people I need. And then I can’t say that it would be cute of me to say that that’s not a piece of it. But I, what I hope the story I tell myself and what I hope is true is that this is just an adventure’s journal.

It’s like Shackleton’s journal, right? Like I’m traveling through a landscape. That I think most of us are traveling through. I’m worried and scared and excited and thrilled and stoked and, and it sometimes has to do with money and sometimes it has to do with how I invest my attention, my time, my energy and I’m trying to figure out what matters to me in an Instagram world.

And like, what matters to me and what was really my mom’s goals or somebody else’s or the society’s goals and That’s getting more complicated and we’re all wandering. We’re all sort of fellow adventurers on the same journey and none of us are talking about it. And so I’m just sort of writing a journal.

I think of my work much more as an adventure journal than I do as a self help book. It’s just like if you happen to be walking this way and it’s hot and you’re thirsty, I notice there’s a spring over here. If you’re not walking this way and you’re not hot and it’s not thirsty, then it doesn’t really matter.

Like, so that’s kind of what it’s meant. I, that’s my, that’s the story I tell myself is that that’s what I hope it’s for is that somehow at the very least we won’t all feel alone. Cause you know, I’m, I’m on the same journey. 

[00:30:37] Jesse: How do you, as you’re going along that journey or when you’re telling yourself that story, I want to ask you about imposter syndrome.

I’m a late career changer, at least late by relative standards of where I am in my life. I spent six years in college studying mechanical engineering. I then spent seven years designing and building and launching satellite telescopes into space. And along that process or somewhere on that timeline, I started a blog and this podcast about personal finance and investing, and then kind of use them as my resume to switch careers, which now for two and a half years, I’ve been working at this wealth management firm in Rochester.

I have imposter syndrome because I’m an engineer. I felt good as an engineer. I felt like I belonged. And it’s not that I don’t feel like I belong, but I just, I’m late to this game. And so I battle imposter syndrome a little bit, but I have to imagine, you know, you’re writing and speaking, publishing in the New York times, right?

You’ve got this huge audience. What are your thoughts on imposter syndrome or what are some of your 

[00:31:31] Carl: personal stories there? Forever, it was a really, really big problem. And my relationship with imposter syndrome is completely changed. So I’ll tell you about that change. And, and this version of imposter syndrome that we’re pointing to is just sort of like a, kind of a unique strain of fear.

And there are people that have like legitimate imposter syndrome and that’s kind of a different discussion, but the version that most of us talk about, in fact, this was my most popular column I ever wrote in as a, you know, the, your money section of the times was about imposter syndrome. I’m a kid from the hills in Utah, right?

Like I didn’t even take a writing class. I don’t even know what that means. And I certainly never took any art classes. And through a series of just really, really honestly fortunate accidents and luck, just straight up luck. I ended up doing this thing and in a newspaper that a few people read and every Thursday morning or whatever day it was, I think it was Thursday morning when the column was due, I was in my little office in Utah looking out in the hills.

There was no like music playing. There was no sunlight coming through the window. There was no angels singing in the background. It was just like, and I was. Trying to draw things. Sometimes I’d just be like, I can’t, this is terrible. And I used to do it on paper instead of my iPad. And so there’d be hundreds of pieces of paper over my shoulder and just this whole sense of anxiety and I’m up against a deadline.

And then I would scan it into the Fujitsu Snap Scanner. So like I didn’t even have a flatbed scanner. I had a Fujitsu Snap Scanner. I’d scan it in and then I’d go to hit send to the editor right about when I’d go to hit send. I would feel over my left shoulder because the door was that way, and I had, I had one of those frosted glass doors, so if somebody was standing outside, you could tell there was something outside.

You couldn’t tell who it was or what it was. You could just see a shape, and I’d see a shape in my mind’s eye. I would look over there, and there’d be a shape, and they would open the door, and it was always Homer Simpson’s boss. Mr. Burns would open the door, and he’d stick his head in. And he’d be like, what is going on in here?

Like, do they know? Is that a Fujitsu snap scanner? Do they know? This is like, you’re not even in Park City. You’re in the hills out in the country part. Like, do they wait till they find out? Like that would be the feeling. And I’d always just be like, ah, that’s so scary. And then one day I was in South Africa at one of the first really big speaking engagements I did.

There was 5, 000 people in stadium seating and I walked out for the, and I just like turned around and walked back. Like, I was just like, there’s no way. And I noticed that same feeling. I was like, Oh, I was like, I felt like I look at looking over my left shoulder. I felt like I could see Mr. Burns again. I was like, that’s weird.

And it used to be that I would just feel this tightness in my chest and this anxiety and I would just push through it as sort of like kick fear in the teeth, kind of push through. Like that, that approach. And so, but this is when it changed. I was like, Oh, Mr. Burns, that’s really interesting. Mr. Burns is here.

And then I, and then I was like, I, a couple months later I was starting a big mountain bike race. It was going to take me eight to 12 hours. And I was like, I honestly didn’t know if I was going to finish. I knew I wouldn’t die. I mean, it was like I could, it was going to be fine, but I didn’t know if I was going to finish.

So I was really nervous. And I remember, looking over my left shoulder and in the group of people at the start line thinking, Oh my gosh, Mr. Burns is here. So then I was like, I had 10 hours to think about that. So I was on my bike thinking about it. And I was like, at the birth of my first child, certainly at my wedding, like, and I was like, wait, Mr.

Burns has been at every cool thing I’ve ever done. Like anything I’ve ever done. They always, and this is a Seth Godin line, they almost like may, this might not work. Seth likes to say. Like, of course, like, who am I to have a kid? Are you crazy? Marriage? What? I was 23. Like, like, mountain bike crazy? So then I was like, well, wait, if Mr.

Burns was always at every cool event, some of them work, some of them didn’t, but if Mr. Burns was always every cool event, why would I want to get rid of that? So then I was like, wait, I want to structure my whole life around Mr. Burns being there as often as I can. He’s at every good party. So that’s when it changed for me.

And I learned to be like, Now I just look over my left shoulder and I’m like, Oh, like I feel the tightness in my chest that used to be like, Oh, fight through it, fight through it. Instead of fight through it. Now I can feel it. And this, I think is the big key. Feel it. And then I think personifying it’s kind of cool.

And Elizabeth Gilbert says that strain of fear is like, like your crazy uncle that you want to come on the trip. You just won’t let them drive. So now I just look over my left shoulder. I’m like, Hey, Mr. Burns, I’m glad you’re back. Like, let’s get to work. And I know that feeling is just like, Oh, that means you’re going to do something that may not work.

This is going to be cool. Whatever happens is going to be exciting. This is gonna be fun. So that’s the approach. That fear is driven most of the good things that have happened in my life. I, that’s the last thing I’d want to kick in the teeth, you know, like no fear, like no, come on in. And there’s one more story.

The Buddha was teaching under the bodhi tree and there’s a bunch of people out there and out in the bushes there was Mara, which is the like mischievous devil. One of the Buddha’s attendants came up and said, Hey Buddha, Mara’s here, like all worried. Mara’s here. And the Buddha said, Oh good, invite her in for tea.

And I was like, yeah, that’s what I say to Mr. That’s what I’m gonna say to Mr. Burns. I’m going to be like, Oh good, come on in for tea. So that’s how it’s changed for me. 

[00:36:52] Jesse: Well, 

[00:36:52] Carl: I’m 

[00:36:52] Jesse: drinking some tea right here, which is coincidental that you brought that up. Well, selfishly for my own sake and also for listeners sake, I hope that reframing takes effect.

The next time I feel imposter syndrome and whether it’s Mr. Burns or some other personification, I hope I’m able to look at them with a little bit more excitement and invite them in and welcome them in because it’s a sign of, they even say from a kind of physiological scientific point of view, that anxiety and excitement really are kind of similar emotions.

Like physiologically, the way your brain and your body react are quite similar. It’s just the framing of excitement is something good. and anxiety is something bad. Yeah. The event itself is good or bad, but kind of underlying it all. It’s, it’s just, I like the idea that there’s something good on the other side of that feeling and your body’s just letting you know that and you have to convince your, your rational brain.

That’s the case. 

[00:37:42] Carl: Yeah. One, one thing that’s really important to me that I’ve since learned is that I want to expose myself to Mr. Burns as often as possible. with chunks of rest between. And I didn’t used to realize the value of the chunks of rest. And so I’d end up completely burned out and have to take time off.

Or like we ended up moving to New Zealand actually as a result of one of those experiences. And So, now I’m like, Mr. Burns, Mr. Burns, Mr. Burns, rest. Mr. Burns, Mr. Burns, rest. Right? And I think that’s a much healthier approach. 

[00:38:13] Jesse: Here’s a quick ad and then we’ll get back to the show. A few of you occasionally inquire about two different topics that are actually related.

The first type of question seeks out details about my professional life and the wealth management firm that I work for here in Rochester, New York. The second type of question involves the best interest, which operates with no advertising, no pushy sales, no paywalls. And the question is, how can the best interest stay afloat?

Well, to answer both of those questions, I want to point you to episode 78 of the Best Interest Podcast. I intentionally recorded episode 78 to shine light on those topics and inform you how you can actually help the best interest stay afloat. If you’re so inclined. So if you’ve ever been curious about the business of the best interest, please go listen or download episode 78 and let me know what you think.

Carl, we were talking earlier that the listener audience here does skew towards the DIY investor and you have a famous sketch. There are two bars on a bar chart. One is labeled investment returns and it’s much taller than the bar next to it, which is labeled invest store returns. And that difference where investors.

generally have smaller returns is labeled, you, you’ve labeled it the behavior gap, which I suppose led to a, a wonderful naming brand naming opportunity for you. Can we talk a little bit more about the behavior gap, but then maybe we can segue into this bigger, broader concept of real financial planning and what that term means to you.

[00:39:37] Carl: Yeah. I mean, listen, I think the reason to get advice is not because you don’t have the technical skill or you don’t know how to do it yourself. The reason to get advice is because you have blind spots and those blind spots lead to behavior that produces a suboptimal result with the benefit of hindsight.

In the moment it feels totally rational and totally reasonable and so I think if you’re doing it yourself, the most important thing to protect against is not the technical skill. Portfolio design is actually up to 95 percent you know, of it is actually relatively simple. It’s in the really smart people have outlined exactly.

And John Bogle used to say that, you know, like put all your money in S and B 500 index fund and. Put a hundred minus your age in S& P 500 index fund and put the inverse. If you’re 20, you’re putting 80 percent in S& P 500 index fund and 20 percent in a safe, like short term bonds index fund. And what he used to say about that approach is that there are ways to invest that are better, but the ways to invest that are worse are infinite.

Yes, there are ways to invest that are better. The problem isn’t that. That’s not the problem. The problem is figuring out how to allocate money. I know plenty of people who do this on their own and are totally capable of doing it. And often They’re wired just a little bit differently than most people, to be honest, like long term investment results are not a function of skill.

They’re a function of behavior. And that’s what the behavior app points to. And these are advised or non advised. This isn’t a DYI. This isn’t an indictment of DYI at all. It’s humans. Most of the data on, on the behavior app stuff that we underperform our investments, which essentially points to the idea that most investors would be better off at an index fund.

This is kind of like the shortcut you could get to. Well, those were mostly people who had advisors. So this isn’t an indictment against DYI at all. I’m just saying as a human, if I was doing, if you’re doing this on your own, the thing that you want to be most aware of is the fact that you have blind spots and figure out how to get really important guardrails in place to force yourself to do things that feel stupid.

They feel against your wiring. Like, I don’t know. You’re going to need to rebalance into things that you want to sell, that everybody else is selling. Like you need to rebalance when the market is low, the market is down, and you need to rebalance out of the market, just a little around the edges, by the way, not wholesale, just a little rebalancing things when the market is high and everybody’s buying.

That’s really hard. And it’s cute to say now, but it’s really hard in 2007 and eight. It’s really hard when the, everybody on this TV is yelling. So that’s what you need to be aware of, right? Is that it’s the blind spots. There’s equally as many ways to deal with that as there is the investment problem, the like tactical investment problem.

You just have to be aware of it. There’s a, a 

[00:42:30] Jesse: story I’ve written about, there’s a lumber town, like a mill town in northern Pennsylvania. They built a highway bypass, kind of like over and around the town. So the highways elevated, it’s, it’s 40 feet up above the ground, and for like a mile there’s this bypass, there’s this problem.

After the bypass was built for like a number of years. Where these deer would get quote unquote stuck on the bypass would kind of freak out. And the only option that the deer knew, cause they’re just deer, they would jump off the bypass down to their death and into someone’s, you know, backyard. And so the problem was, I think the New York Times even wrote about it.

They’re like all these people. Citizens of the town are saying like, what the hell? These deer are raining down on us from above. It’s kind of a weird analogy, but when I read it, I thought of the fact that obviously to us smart humans, we say, well, why don’t, why didn’t the deer just walk off the bridge?

And it’s like, well, it doesn’t know better. And that fight or flight instinct kicks in and the deer thinks to itself, this is my only option. And it panics, right? The deer panics and it jumps. There is some sort of parallel, maybe not to every human, but every human has that amygdala. Right? We have that fight or flight and that irrationality that kicks in in the midst of a market panic and that ability to say, despite my fear, I still know I need to do the smart thing and rebalance right now.

That’s really hard. It’s a different kind of Mr. Burns looming outside your frosted glass window saying, what are you, stupid? Why are you going to rebalance right now? 

[00:43:53] Carl: It’s, it’s counterintuitive to like in MBA 101. You learn if you have three divisions and one’s doing poorly and two are doing well, you kill the one that’s doing poorly and you reallocate those resources to the one that’s doing well.

To hire a basketball coach, it would make no sense to not look at their record and have some reasonable expectation that might continue. I just think like if my hands on a burning stove, I don’t really care what you tell me about not taking it off. I’m going to take it off. And so you just have to be aware of that.

And most people are wired. Buffett said, That he was just born in the right time. That if he had been born any other time, he would’ve been eaten by lions. Right? And he just happens to be wired in a way where he’s comfortable with that. And I, I’ve talked to plenty of people who are, they’re just like, I don’t get the whole emotion about this.

Well, that’s rare and that research is clear. Most people, we’re mostly hard wired to get more of what gives us pleasure and security and run as fast as we can from stuff that causes us pain. Totally. Now the next thing I just want 

[00:44:50] Jesse: to ask a little bit about. Some of the real value add of real financial planning.

So Carl, I mean, going maybe a step deeper on, on real financial planning as opposed to just investment management, which, you know, we kind of spent the last couple of minutes talking about that. It’s something that I’ve spoken to recently with my audience about the value add of real financial planning.

Now it might not be there for all DIY investors, but I think we need to realize and admit to ourselves that for many people out there, people who we know, you know, our great aunt Ethel or the guy at the barbecue, who we always see. They might not have any sort of DIY bones in their body. And so there’s real value and there’s a real value add to the work that, that we do.

So how do you go about explaining that idea? Or maybe how do you differentiate between the real financial planning and the value there as opposed to maybe some of the bad precedent set in this industry where maybe there isn’t a value add to what all financial advisors do? 

[00:45:42] Carl: Yeah. I mean, listen, the problem is that that’s mostly true, that most of the industry is worthless.

And that’s the problem. And that’s why I used to call it the secret society of real financial planners. Like it was secret. It was hard to find. And we don’t even as humans, we don’t even know, like, it’s hard for me to figure out what goes on in our industry. Speaking broadly, it’s hard for me to figure it out.

Try figuring it out without 20 years of background. Like it’s hard. And as humans, we don’t really even know, like we’ve been trained that it’s all about solving various, it’s almost like I’m going to self diagnose. I’ve got this pool of money or I’m not sleeping well because I need life insurance. Like I’m going to go and I’m going to find somebody to buy it and they’re going to sell stuff to me and I got to treat it like a used car sales experience.

It’s going to be adversarial. And the reason most people feel that way is because that has been their experience. And so many people are doing it themselves because They realized they could lose money on their own without paying somebody. And I don’t mean it that way. I just mean like, they could do a better job on their own.

Now what separates that from what I call real financial planning, which absolutely exists and is life changing if you can find it and it’s worth every penny you’d ever pay, it’s just hard to find. And real financial advisors or planners have a real problem because they can’t really tell you what it is they do.

Because it doesn’t really make sense until you experience it. Because it’s a feeling. And you, when you think of like I need financial advice, you don’t think I need somebody to make me feel a certain way. You think I need somebody to figure out how to invest my money. Well, that’s easy. I can read a book.

So it’s really a circular problem. So here’s the difference. To me, this is the most common question I’m getting asked these days. And it’s typically age cohort of like 40 to 55. And they’ll say, Hey, can I, you know, I’m going to be in park city where I live. Can we meet for coffee or something? I read one of your books or your column.

And I, I know what’s going to happen. We, we ended up sitting down and these are typically really successful people who will show some proof of success. They’ll say, look, I, and they’ll show like probably not physically, but like a balance sheet, like I’ve made this much money or I sold my business or I’m retired or.

Or they’ll show an income statement, like I make, you know, 800, 000 a year as an anesthesiologist or whatever. And then they’ll look around to make sure nobody’s listening. And they’ll say, what’s it all for? Like, is this really all there? Like, I did, I did all the things. I, like, I’ve won the whole thing. And is this the prize?

I think Stephen Covey said something along the lines of, the last thing you want to do is spend your whole life climbing a ladder only to find out it’s leaning against the wrong wall. And I think what a real advisor does is help you not just make sure you’ve built a really great ladder, but make sure that it’s leaning against the right wall.

And those things are actually harder than they sound as humans to get clear about what we really want. I would imagine some of your listeners, especially ones that have a little bit more experience and are in their late forties, early fifties, or maybe even in their sixties are like, yeah, you know, like I thought I wanted to retire to the sailboat.

Have you ever been on a sailboat? You know, you don’t really know. and having somebody clarify and then align your use of capital in an ongoing way with what you said was important to you. And as the thing that’s important to you refines and changes, we need to make sure the alignment of capital refines and changes.

So what I would say is a real financial advisor can help you in ways you don’t even understand. And how do you find one? Like, yeah, you just have to interview people. See, here’s the problem. Most financial advisors don’t take time to understand, to help you with that conversation, or where do you want to go?

So we’re all just arguing about whether we should take a plane, a train, or an automobile, and we’re going to debate the merits of a plane, a train, or an automobile before anybody stopped to say, Where do you want to go? And then that’s a never ending process. Like what I thought I wanted five years ago is different this morning.

My wife said something like, Hey, maybe we should take a year and work from one of the, you know, Spain, Italy, or Portugal, because they’re offering these digital nomad visas. I was like, The guys are outside doing the landscaping right now, like we’re almost done with this, you know, so, and, and so all I’m saying is a year from now, what is really important to me will be a little different and I’m going to have to go back to my planner and say, Hey, we’re kind of thinking this, how would that change?

Oh, well then we should be thinking this and this and this. And that’s what a relationship with a real planner looks like. And I have deep empathy for anybody listening going, yeah, I don’t, where do you find that? Cause it’s hard. It’s hard. But here’s what I tell you, just because you haven’t ever had found one, it They do exist.

Like I’ve seen them in the wild. It’s kind of like a little adventure hunt. You like got to go out like there’s one over there. They’re out there. 

[00:50:26] Jesse: I really like that answer, Carl. And I’ll be honest to the listeners. What you described is immensely valuable. It’s also hard. I mean, I’ve sat on the opposite side of the table from a client and I get nervous sometimes or I feel imposter syndrome or whatever you want to call it about kind of asking them to open up, asking the right questions.

Right. Getting deep in their lives and, and really trying to understand what makes you tick. I mean, the easier thing is to kind of stay on the surface and stick with the numbers and say, I’m going to help you optimize your numbers. That’s kind of the easier part. It’s a bit more of a commodity. And there are probably a lot of advisors out there who can do that, but it is harder, but so much more impactful when I’ve been able to really dive into what makes a person tick and help them align their time, energy, money, attention.

[00:51:13] Carl: I hate to interrupt you, but it’s so interesting. Like when, as soon as we say like, it’s easier to optimize, I’m always asking the question, optimize for what? For what? Yeah. What are you solving for? Like, what are you like? Oh, the portfolio needs to generate a return. Why? For what? We’re always confusing the means with the end.

It’s really crazy that this industry has existed this long without. This kind of dialogue being more direct. Like, what do you mean performance? Portfolio performance or return is not a goal. It’s not a goal. Just a means to a goal. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, that’s the important part. That applies 

[00:51:48] Jesse: to me so much or that hits the right tone with me.

Because as I alluded to earlier, I spent the first 15 years of my professional life after high school being an engineer. The equation always has two sides to it, right? You’re doing everything on the left side of the equal sign because you want to get to whatever’s on the right side of the equal sign.

And what we’re talking about here is that this kind of relationship with real financial planners has a specific right side of the equal sign for whatever that the client’s unique desires are. And you know, what are we solving for? If we don’t know, otherwise, it’s just a question mark on the right side of that equal sign.

And we don’t know if we’re really hitting the mark. We don’t know if we’re driving towards the right answer. For sure. Anyway, Carl, thank you for joining us today and making us think. You know, I don’t know if you spent any money to be here today, but you definitely spent your time, your energy, and your attention.

Yeah. And that’s some capital that I really appreciate, and I think our listeners really appreciate you spending with us. So if anyone wants to either reach out to you or really, I mean, I listen to you and I, I read your stuff through multiple channels. And so I’m not even sure which of your projects to be most excited about and help you promote.

But if you had to point listeners right now to, to something that you’re doing, where would you point them to? 

[00:53:00] Carl: Yeah, it’s either if you like to read, it’s the weekly, you just go to behaviorup. com and sign up for the weekly letter. So we send out a letter each week with a, one of the sketches that I draw in as few words as possible.

And if you’d like to listen, you can go to iTunes or Apple podcasts and subscribe to Behavior Up Radio or 50 fires, which is also super fun. So that’s Behavior Up Radio. Or 50 Fires, both of those podcasts are fun. 

[00:53:25] Jesse: Yeah, 50 

[00:53:26] Carl: Fires has been great. 

[00:53:27] Jesse: I’ve been listening to every episode 

[00:53:28] Carl: so far. What was your favorite one?

[00:53:30] Jesse: Well, you know, I really liked the Josh Brown episode, because I’m a fan of Josh. And I really liked His Name Escapes Me, but Tank from Breaking Bad. Dean, Dean, I really liked that episode. That was really fun. But yeah, listeners be sure to check out 50 Fires really is their fun conversations. They’re kind of like money origin stories.

Is that, is that a fair way to describe them, Carl? Yeah. It’s 

[00:53:50] Carl: almost like this is, this is for your listeners to know. This is, I was trying to recreate what I think a really good first meeting with the financial advisor is about. And so yeah, we’ve had, chip Gaines has been on my, my favorite episodes is the one with my wife, I’ve had my daughter on.

I just recorded with Scott Ballou, who created all the Yeti films. We just Dexter Fowler, who was a major league baseball player, baseball player. Yeah. So fun. So there’s a, there’s a bunch of really great ones coming out soon. Very 

[00:54:16] Jesse: cool. Well, listeners, be sure to check out that we’ll put links in the show notes and Carl Richards.

Thanks again for stopping by the best interest podcast. Cheers, Jesse. Thank you. 

[00:54:25] Intro: Thanks for tuning into this episode of the best interest podcast. If you have a question for Jesse to answer on a future episode, send him an email. at jesse at bestinterest. blog. Again, that’s jesse at bestinterest. blog. Did you enjoy the show?

Subscribe, rate, and review the podcast wherever you listen. This helps others find the show and invest in knowledge themselves, and we really appreciate it. We’ll catch you on the next episode of the Best Interest Podcast.

The Best Interest Podcast is a personal podcast meant for education and entertainment. It should not be taken as financial advice and is not prescriptive of your financial situation.